#anti chaorene

[ladydeath-vanserra]

e x a c t l y

tbh I get leery when healers are introduced in fantasy series. Chaol was paralyzed with a spinal cord injury and SJM managed to make the whole thing both ableist and racist from Yrene getting mad at him telling him to stand up when he frustrates her too much (she is a PROFESSIONAL HEALER your ass would get FIRED for that if a physical therapist said that to one of their patients)

He regains the ability to walk in like 2 months after being paralyzed, oh but that can go away if Yrenes magic is depleted WHAT?? their lives get *literally* bound together and it's through her literal magic he can walk

it's gross. it's icky and Yrene is literally holding him up via her magic and bond. magic healers are such a cop out and at worst can become incredibly ableist

[highladyofterrasen7]

E/riels acting like elain not liking lucien is reason enough for there to be no endgame with them

Feyre didn’t like Rhys at first

Aelin didn’t like rowan

Bryce didn’t like hunt

Nesta didn’t like cassian

Yrene didn’t like chaol

People’s opinions can change

[shadowqueenjude]

Chaorene vs Feysand Pregnancy

A lot of people have pointed out that Feyre’s pregnancy trope is awful, but I haven’t seen anyone compare it to Yrene’s yet and I think it would help a lot of people understand the countless problems with it. First let’s discuss Yrene’s pregnancy: Yrene's baby was a regular human baby so it carried minimal risk to her life. Actually, she hid her pregnancy initially because she didn't want Chaol to worry, but clearly, the baby was entirely her choice. But even after Chaol found out, it didn't stop Yrene from healing a bunch of people on a daily basis, including removing Valg from human bodies. Chaol had an insane amount of faith in her, so much faith that even though he was worried as hell, he trusted Yrene to take on the DEMON KING Erawan which she did and won because she is a baddie. Even Lorcan points out that he's "not sure Yrene is human" because she's such a queen. Clearly, being pregnant didn't stop her from taking action. Now let's discuss Feyre's pregnancy: Feyre was complaining about being seen as a "trophy wife" by Tamlin (I just don't see this at all but go figure), yet after being constantly objectified by Rhysand, being sexually assaulted, and playing his whore, she finds herself a year later isolated from everybody, forced to walk around with a heavy shield and unable to go anywhere without heavy protection, forced to hide her pregnancy from everyone until it was "deemed safe," and she was unaware of the fact that her baby will most likely kill her. Rhysand threatened Nesta into not telling and when she did tell her (as was in her right), he nearly killed her. Not to mention Rhysand was acting like a possessive asshole, antagonizing everybody who got anywhere near her. But canonically, Feyre is very powerful. So why the hell doesn't he trust her? Why does he isolate her? Yet I see Chaol get an insane amount of hate from this fandom and Rhysand doesn't get nearly enough. Yrene's pregnancy is inspiring. Feyre's pregnancy is the upholding of toxic masculinity and underlies the major problems with pro-choice advocacy. It's amazing that both are written by the same author. But it shows that SJM is capable of writing a proper story if she actually tries.

[ennawrite]

“four books of buildup” doesn’t really mean much to me when SJM’s best couple (Chaol x Yrene) had ONE book of buildup 🙏

(also, her second best couple (Nesryn x Sartaq) was formed in half of that time so i don’t think books of “buildup” is all that important to Mrs. Maas 🤣)

[shadowqueenjude]

Spitting out the controversial yet true opinions everyone else is scared to point out😭 The main reason people even hate on Chaol is bc he doesn’t kiss Celaena/Aelin’s ass, like you want a partner who won’t even challenge you? lol

rowan is a cheap, boring and rude version of chaol. they're both grumpy, annoyed, no-nonsense warriors who at first are wary of aelin/celaena but grow to care for her deeply. they even have the same mbti!! the main difference is that chaol did it first, and chaol did it better.

[faithfire-writes]

Thank you for reaching out! So, I picked up TOG for the first time at the end of June, and fell in love with the first two because of Chaolaena. Fast forward to February, when I finally got copies of my own. I'm not planning on reading them for several more months, but now I'm wondering if it's a mistake. I wrote a venting post in the fall detailing my unhappiness with how SJM handled things. And now it's just gotten to a point where I'm getting more and more angry over it. I don't feel like I can really express myself freely because most pro-Chaol fans are only for Chao, and are anti Aelin, or they like Chaorene, which I'm not for. But yeah. I don't even have to go into the anti SJM tag to get "triggered" as it was.

Welcome to the club. I got into ToG before Queen of Shadows and became a Fan. I preordered books so I could get pins/tote bags. I LOVED it. Then the Fae agenda started pushing harder and harder. I latched onto the witches and Lysandra and the non-Fae stuff. I wanted Rowan and Aelin to have a mentor/mentee relationship like Geralt and Ciri. I never did finish the last book because I got So Sick of every other page gushing over Fae. Basically what my tiff with SJM boils down to "missed opportunities". She focused so much on Rowan/Aelin that she missed a lot of the potentially fascinating political subplots. Ansel is Queen of the Wastes. The Wastes are the witches' ancestral home. And yet there are no issues there? I was excited to see them FEUD over it. Galan Ashryver is related to Aelin, but how did he end up in Wendlynn when the rest of the Ashryver family is in Terrasen? Was Elide a witch or not? There are so many unanswered questions I still have. I won't say do or don't read the books, it's your choice. One of my favorite characters (Lysandra) comes in in book 4, and again, I LOVE the witches. There's some good stuff there, but if you're a fan of Chaolena, I will warn you, it's a rough ride again. Feel free to DM me any time about your thoughts.

[limeros]

I’ve come to the conclusion that Yrene is only still here to make Chaol look straight and Manon was only thrown at Dorian to make him look straight. I see what your doing Sarah Janet and it’s not working cause my boys are definitely gay thanks

[shadowqueenjude]

Sjm loves fated mates, idk why people don’t get that. But also, she loves her endgame couples sharing a certain BOND. Even her human couple, Chaol and Yrene, end up sharing a healing bond when Yrene makes that deal with Silba. They are not mates, but they’re eternally connected through the healing bond. So, the idea of Lucien and Elain having a permanent bond (the mating bond) is a classic feature of endgame couples. She even wrote Rowan’s first mate being fake because she wanted her endgame couple, Rowaelin, to share a magic BOND. Why would she change Lucien’s mate from Nesta, who she claimed was so wrong for Lucien, to Elain, if she was going to reject the bond? It wouldn’t make sense.

You know something.... in Sarah worlds, the "bad" examples of fated mates still end up together and are seen as endgame, in a way. Examples, Tamlins parents and Rhysand parents.

Now saying that, why wouldn't Lucien and Elain work out? Sure, Elain is uncomfortable right now with Lucien, but honestly, that's to be expected. Sarah's endgame mated couples so far aren't necessarily warm with each other at first.

That kind of stuff is built up in their books for their character development on their own and eventually them coming together. We have yet to see Lucien or Elain really develop. It's only fair to assume Sarah has kept their development on the down low as both of their growth will happen in their book with them as endgame as they are fated mates and Sarah writes her fated mates = endgame with each other.

[doraelinn]

aedion: *drops subtle hints he likes lysandra*

aedion, one day later: we’Re geTTinG maRriEd iS tHat okAy wiTh yOU

[highladyofterrasen7]

“Why do people hate chaol”

We hate chaol because for the longest time Celaena/aelin hated chaol. When reading you somewhat absorb the feelings of certain characters, with c/a’s dislike of him, we disliked him. She disliked him because he didn’t tell her of the threat to nehemia’s life which caused her to spiral into despair and we sympathised with her, after all the death of a friend you felt like you could’ve prevented is heartbreaking. It’s why due to ToD many people came to like chaol because the book was free of the bias that came with c/a’s pov.

And lots of people were able to overcome that and like chaol and ToD, some were not and some (like me) are somewhat on the fence

[shadowqueenjude]

Scared to post this one but... Sjm said that she fell in love with the ACOTAR characters after writing book one and then wrote all of book two and part of book 3. She then became obsessed with Rhysand and decided to insert him earlier than intended to make him a LI later on but otherwise kept the first book more or less the same. Sjm also said that in the original TOG Rowan was there from the beginning but he was never a love interest for the MC and then she rewrote the series to introduce Rowan a little later in Heir of Fire so he could be the LI. So there is a version of these series where Feylin and Chaolena are endgame. Chaol’s character suffered A LOT but thankfully he wasn’t turned full on into a tool, I loved him the whole time (tho many people disagree); Tamlin on the other hand, became more and more difficult to like because he was overwritten so many times to turn him into the bad guy bc there was absolutely no way anyone would choose Rhysand if Tamlin remained “nice,” and it’s really not a good romance if you have to pull down one character to bring up another. So despite BOTH sides making mistakes in BOTH relationships, the men bear the brunt of the blame. But part of being feminist is acknowledging that BOTH sides make mistakes. Making men look like the villain in a relationship to prop up the women is not feminism. This explains why the Feylin and Chaolena romantic development was so much better than for Feysand and Rowaelin; both were overwritten.

[valkyriesno1fan]

but sure…sexual attraction equals endgame lmao

Chaol&Nesryn

“Nesryn made a small sound and at last opened for him.”

“He tilted her head slightly to more thoroughly claim her…”

“The noise that came out of her, deep and breathless, made him see red.”

Azriel&Elain:

“Azriel's hand slid up her neck, burying itself in Elain's thick hair. Turning her face in the direction he wanted.”

“What that beautiful face would look like when he entered her, what sounds she would make.”

“Her excitement rose to him, and Azriel's eyes almost rolled back…”

[daevastanner]

Throne of Glass Ships and their future children

Including character traits of said children and their sexualities because if SJM won’t give us NB characters or more gay rep then I will

Lysaedion: one (likely a boy and he is the straightest man you will ever meet - even though he experimented once)

They’re that couple that travels around to their families throwing out gifts from their adventures. Basically everyone’s favorite aunt and uncle. When they eventually have one kid that kid is spoiled rotten and way too smart for their own good. But smart in a “street smart courtier” sort of way. He’s also deadly AF and Aedion’s replica, except for his eyes which are Lysandra’s.

Manorian: one (for sure a little princess who is very bisexual)

Listen, I just feel like these two would really want a small family. Dorian and Manon only want a kid because they saw the joy it brought their loved ones to have children (Dorian with Chaol and Manon with Asterin). They are the super protective parents, but in a great way. In the way that it doesn’t matter what their kid has done, they’ve always got their back. They’re definitely that family that has a family motto they all take very seriously.

Elorcan: 3 (I’m thinking one girl, one boy, one non-binary)

Elorcan kinda just happen upon having kids. One day they decide they want to and while they aren’t actively trying, they stop trying to prevent it. Almost instantly they have their first kid and for Lorcan it’s like getting hit by a freight train because he realizes “oh I could get used to this having a family thing” and next thing Elide knows he’s asking for another. And she’s game so they have another. And then after some hesitation they have a third. Elide has said three is the cut-off, but Lorcan is pushing for four because he wants a small army.

Nesryn x Sartaq: 2 (one girl - an amazing archer with a rakish wit - one trans-boy - a charming prince to rival Dorian)

A very conventional royal family for the most part. The children train in both combat and politics, they are a unified front. Where they differ is that when their daughter decides she has no interest in politics, or when their son drops the bow, both Nesryn and Sartaq are the “I don’t care — whatever makes you happy” parents. They keep their kids to their word, but they never make them do anything they don’t want to do, and similar to Manorian they will go down swinging for their kids.

Chaorene: 6 (three girls - two are tom-boy warriors and one is a more feminine healer - three boys - one is an asexual replica of Chaol, another is a gentle healer, the last is a voracious reader know-it-all)

No. I’m not wrong here at all. Because this man daydreams of “raising a brood of children” with his wife someday. In TOD Yrene catches him “smiling broadly” at a baby and says he looks at it like something he “might desire.” He’s not impatient for their family to grow though what with his own mother and brother and the surprise of a first child they had. But when Yrene tells him she’s pregnant a second time he’s over the moon. And every time she breaks the news again his excitement level is always through the damn roof. And Yrene is the soccer mom type. Hyper efficient. Super encouraging. Together her and Chaol are powerhouse parents who run their family on mutual respect and honesty. Also, the first time Chaol has to discipline his children he realizes that he has a severe aversion to any sort of physical reprimand. This man is that parent that is an anti-spanking advocate. Yrene couldn’t agree more.

Rowaelin: 5 (3 girls - all mini Aelins who are slightly vain, very confident, and bossy - 2 boys - one is a mini Rowan in every way, the other is the openly gay sibling and an orchestrator of familial chaos)

Now hear me out: I think that Rowan’s desire for a big family takes Aelin completely off guard. She kinda falls into a similar ring with Lorcan where she’s not anti-children, she just doesn’t see the appeal of a big family. But the second she sees Rowan holding their first child, she has a Lorcan moment where she realizes that “damn, that man looks so fucking happy and I can get behind more of this.” She loves how active and young kids make her feel, but more than anything she loves the soft side of Rowan that they bring out. She also loves that he reads them bedtime stories, and Rowan is that dad that will do different voices for every character. Also, Rowan is the surprise home-maker husband. He sees to the kids, to the schedule, while Aelin does the majority of negotiation and ruling. It’s met with some resistance by the more traditional members of their kingdom but Rowaelin have never given any fucks and practically make giving zero fucks an art form so Rowan will make trips into town with the five of his kids, sans Aelin, to do grocery shopping. It always draws a few strange looks but Rowan thrives on it. Together Rowaelin swap up the gender roles and not just to spite sexism, but because it works for them. Rowan is tired of being a warrior and Aelin is just getting her feet wet.

A quick apology to my queer friends who I’ve recommended SJMs books to that were disappointed with the lack of representation

[lucien-calore]

chaorian: *kissing*

sj//m: the two cOMPLETLY STRAIGHT friends are hanging out in a totally hétero way. they are just friends, they love each other like brothers and they’re totally straight because they have wives who are totally not sapphics, not at all. everyone is straight, not a single homo in sight.

[hacawijo]

I know that it feels kind of scary to see that a close friend of SJM’s ships something that you don’t. It’s scary because it’s hard to imagine that a close friend wouldn’t have some kind of influence on their bff’s creative projects/or some kind of insider knowledge. But I really trust that SJM knows and has sort of always known how all of these HEAs are going to end up, and I don’t think that anything anyone says is going to change that or has in the past. I also believe Steph when they say that Sarah doesn’t tell them much about the story before-hand. Sarah has said that she knows exactly what the next book will be about! She just hasn’t written it yet.

I certainly don’t agree with Steph and @highlord-tarquin about Elriel, but that’s the fun of fandom! Talking and theorizing and not necessarily agreeing but seeing each other’s points. I didn’t watch their live, but I do think that part of what people like about that kind of thing is that it is just a couple fans shooting the sh*t. I’m sure we’ve all phrased things in a way that didn’t come off as we meant it while we were first reacting to or processing something for the first time, and I really believe that Steph and Ava love these books and care about these characters, just like the rest of us. If they did say things that were problematic, I’m sure they’ve reflected on them and will adjust in kind, as many of us do when someone calls us in (in and not out, hopefully!)

Will I continue to strongly root for Elriel? Absolutely 🤣 Am I like 98% sure that that’s the direction the story is going on? Yes! But it just comes off really aggressive and insecure to delegitimize fan opinions and first impressions/reactions (and they are, in this setting, just fans like the rest of us!) with attacks on their personalities and values because you disagree, and then write them off completely now and forever.

Over the past few weeks I’ve had great conversations with people who love Gwynriel and Elriel and some who just want Lucien to be happy, and I know that they’ve all been fun and respectful, so I know that the majority of people ARE being warm and taking this for the fun that it is. I’ve also seen a couple of pretty extreme anti reactions from people who ship Gwynriel AND those who ship Elriel; there is toxicity coming from BOTH ENDS, and it is really alarming.

I TRUST SARAH! I have never been dissatisfied with a friendship or endgame romance that she’s written, and I know that whatever happens she understands what needs to be written in order for a relationship to make sense/feel right. Tbh I was pretty freakin devastated about Chaol and Celaena, but now I do love Rowaelin and Chaorene. I’m gonna keep stanning Elriel and Elain and Azriel and Gwyn and Lucien, and I’m gonna keep theorizing, but I’m gonna work hard to not turn something that has brought me so much joy into something that makes me feel defensive and stressed (at least not in the long term, I’m always a little stressed about my ships when new info happens 🥲)

I really, really understand feeling powerless and misunderstood, and I REALLY understand what characters and fictional worlds can mean to people (they mean a great deal to me). But it’s also because of that understanding that I won’t begrudge someone their ship or opinions if I’m pretty sure their intentions are good, as most people’s are in these cases.

Some people do hate Elain for the wrong reasons, and there may be some folks who only stan Gwynriel because they don’t want Azriel with Elain, but I think most people just love Gwyn and see it differently. Keep calling people in when you see something that doesn’t feel right, but I think we should all stop being spiteful.

I hope that I haven’t made anyone feel unheard with this speech, and honestly I’m a little scared to post it, but I want to share my thoughts with a great fandom and hope that other folks will feel as welcome coming into it as I have!

Thank you all for your great theories and thought-provoking discussions 😊

[discountalien-pancake]

Chaol was distinctly uncomfortable during that scene too. And didn’t SJ/M give it weirdly sexual overtones (when does she not)?

Tbh I don't know how to feel about Yrene exploiting Chaol's disability. On one hand, it's something that makes him severely uncomfortable and as a disabled person my self, it was wrong for her to call attention to the fact. On the other hand, I'm a nursing student and can see why she'd want to teach ambulation to the younger ones. Idk it was messy and could have been done like 10x better

yeah i agree the motives were good! but what i can’t get over is how she didn’t ask Chaol for permission to make him her disability study, she just went ahead and did it. like if someone did that to me with my asthma, i would stear far clear of them bc it’s my disability and if you want to use it as a test subject, at least as me, yknow? so the fact she didn’t ask Chaol just infuriates me 😂😅